12.01.2005
Community and Church
Ok, admittedly this a topic that gets plenty of press, and I have dealt with it in the past, albeit briefly. I have been working on a paper on the parish system and one of the things that I explore is the idea of "intentional communities" where like-minded people join together to form a community.
Now I'm not so sure.
In a comment on a post about community on Mr. Degenhart's Blog, Rick Saenz said something that confused me the first time I read it:
This coming from a man who was living in the current prime example of an "intentional community!" Reading it now, months later, it makes total sense to me. I think Rick makes a great point here about where a community must come from. For some reason, while planning to relocate our family and pursue a more "agrarian" way of life, we have only been slightly tempted by places such as Bristol or Moscow, and quickly dissuaded. Not that we have some kind of insight, but probably just that I'm intimidated by crowds! I'd much rather find a small country church that we can slip into and try to be a part of the body. As I have alluded to, we have been a part of some interesting homechurch groups, and think that has made us weary of the party-spirit. Not that we are immune to such things, but we do have quite a bit of experience in being hurt.
While I want to be with my like-minded friends who seem to be on the same page as I am, and would love to have them as neighbors, the weight of history probably should advise me to stay away from such "intentional communities." The fact is that our theological and philosophical like-mindedness is probably going to change, that's just a part of the Christian life, we are supposed to keep growing.
I found this link outlining some problems of two such communities: Tyler, TX and Bristol, VA. Now, I am new to this discussion, I don't know much about the Bristol community and I know practically nothing about the (former) Tyler, TX community, but they both pertain to men that I do respect and appreciate. I think that we as Christians are always looking for something to make our walk easier, and intentional communities seem like a great idea. It'd be a lot easier to deal with like-minded people, but is it really what we are called to? Isn't there something to learning how to fit into this diverse body of Christ, of how to love brothers and sisters despite differences? I'm not calling for a sweeping acceptance of all stripes, but if we all weeded out from the church those with whom we had theological differences, we'd be left standing alone.
So now I need to go back through my parish paper and re-examine my propositions. It's not that I think a community of like-minded believers is a bad thing (obviously not), it's more of an issue of how they are formed. I do want to see such communities, and I do believe in the parish system (more on that later) but I am weary about how they are formed. As I said in a previous entry, I still believe that community must be pursued, that it doesn't just happen, but I need to redefine what my idea of pursuit really means.
Let me hear some thoughts on this.
Ok, admittedly this a topic that gets plenty of press, and I have dealt with it in the past, albeit briefly. I have been working on a paper on the parish system and one of the things that I explore is the idea of "intentional communities" where like-minded people join together to form a community.
Now I'm not so sure.
In a comment on a post about community on Mr. Degenhart's Blog, Rick Saenz said something that confused me the first time I read it:
"These days I"m thinking that community and church, while not orthogonal, are less connected than we wish they were. Being on the same page theologically just isn"t enough. The like-mindedness that community requires is deeper and more specific than what is required for brotherhood. We happily attend church with folks who will never be more than acquaintances because of our difference outlook on how to raise a family and live a Christian life, and we don"t feel the need (or have the right) to impose our outlook on them. And we have strong relationships in the local community with people whose theology would probably keep them from attending church with us; some of them are brothers, and some of them may not be.
The best situation is the one where parishioners are on the same page both theologically and community-wise. But I suspect that community would have to come first, i.e. that it would be more of a possibility to get a community on the same theological page than to take a bunch of theologically like-minded folks and forge a community out of them."
This coming from a man who was living in the current prime example of an "intentional community!" Reading it now, months later, it makes total sense to me. I think Rick makes a great point here about where a community must come from. For some reason, while planning to relocate our family and pursue a more "agrarian" way of life, we have only been slightly tempted by places such as Bristol or Moscow, and quickly dissuaded. Not that we have some kind of insight, but probably just that I'm intimidated by crowds! I'd much rather find a small country church that we can slip into and try to be a part of the body. As I have alluded to, we have been a part of some interesting homechurch groups, and think that has made us weary of the party-spirit. Not that we are immune to such things, but we do have quite a bit of experience in being hurt.
While I want to be with my like-minded friends who seem to be on the same page as I am, and would love to have them as neighbors, the weight of history probably should advise me to stay away from such "intentional communities." The fact is that our theological and philosophical like-mindedness is probably going to change, that's just a part of the Christian life, we are supposed to keep growing.
I found this link outlining some problems of two such communities: Tyler, TX and Bristol, VA. Now, I am new to this discussion, I don't know much about the Bristol community and I know practically nothing about the (former) Tyler, TX community, but they both pertain to men that I do respect and appreciate. I think that we as Christians are always looking for something to make our walk easier, and intentional communities seem like a great idea. It'd be a lot easier to deal with like-minded people, but is it really what we are called to? Isn't there something to learning how to fit into this diverse body of Christ, of how to love brothers and sisters despite differences? I'm not calling for a sweeping acceptance of all stripes, but if we all weeded out from the church those with whom we had theological differences, we'd be left standing alone.
So now I need to go back through my parish paper and re-examine my propositions. It's not that I think a community of like-minded believers is a bad thing (obviously not), it's more of an issue of how they are formed. I do want to see such communities, and I do believe in the parish system (more on that later) but I am weary about how they are formed. As I said in a previous entry, I still believe that community must be pursued, that it doesn't just happen, but I need to redefine what my idea of pursuit really means.
Let me hear some thoughts on this.
Comments:
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As a follow-up, Rick Saenz had some great posts regarding this subject and a book that I am currently reading, Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. You can find them here:
Bonhoeffer on community
More on Bonhoeffer and community
Practical implications of Bonhoeffer on community
Bonhoeffer on community
More on Bonhoeffer and community
Practical implications of Bonhoeffer on community
Chris,
You do bring up some valid thoughts and ask some questions that are difficult to answer.
When Christ prays that his followers would be one and unified, I have always wondered how exactly this prayer is answered, considering the fact that there often seems to be such disunity.
The New Testament speaks much on loving the saints. In fact, it is our love for our brethren that reveals to the world that we are disciples of Christ. It is easy to love those who are cut out of the same cloth, it is much more difficult to love those who disagree with us. Our inability to allow our love to cover a multitude of sins has resulted in abundant and sundry wars within the church.
Whatever duties that pertain to community we must be employing now, regardless of whom we are living next to and worshipping with. There is certainly nothing wrong with desiring to move in close proximity with a group of like minded Christians, but sometimes I wonder what kind of community would be established if a group of people who are disgruntled with their present state decide to all move to the same locale, assuming that such a move will be the end all of their frustrations.
Unity is important, of course, for we know that a house divided against itself shall not stand. It is difficult to live in an environment, or worse yet, be part of a church family that consistently rejects the manner in which we are striving to live. It is a sad thing if we have to undo much of what we have seen or heard at church so that are kids are not confused!
We live on a rural property that we have bought together with another family. I went to a small Christian school for 10 years with the wife and I have been great friends with the husband for 15 years. We attend the same church (he is a deacon and I am an elder). We are very much alike and in owning our property, we have spent much time working together. He is gifted in some areas and I in others and we have been able to make the thing work well.
Having said that, in spite of this abundant unity and decades of frienship, it takes much work to keep everything peaceful! They have four sons, we have two daughters and two sons. We don't have the same rules pertaining to children. The differences are petty, in a way, but life on the "playground" can be interesting! My point is only that establishing a sense of community is no easy task!
In other words, what we truly have to work on is learning how to truly love and how to exhibit traits like patience, forbearance, longsuffering etc. We truly need to learn how to be meek and how to allow love to cover a multitude of sins. We have to strive to look first to the things of others and to not think more highly of ourselves than we ought. These things are biblical commands that we must place into practice now, regardless of whether or not we are happy with our position overall. If we are not able to observe and obey these duties, it matters now with whom we worship and live next to, for we will be arguing certainly within the month!
I sometimes argue that my first choice for intimate friends are those who live godly in Christ. I can forbear a lot of doctrinal differences providing that we are on the same page in our desire to live in a holy manner. A couple of my closest friends are paedobaptists, even though we differ on that doctrinal detail. I have a very dear friend who is an Arminian. The thread that binds us together is the fact that we truly love God and desire to honor Him by our conduct.
I recognize that I have said a lot and probably have answered none of your questions, but hopefully somewhere you might find something worthy of consideration!
In Christ,
Bob
You do bring up some valid thoughts and ask some questions that are difficult to answer.
When Christ prays that his followers would be one and unified, I have always wondered how exactly this prayer is answered, considering the fact that there often seems to be such disunity.
The New Testament speaks much on loving the saints. In fact, it is our love for our brethren that reveals to the world that we are disciples of Christ. It is easy to love those who are cut out of the same cloth, it is much more difficult to love those who disagree with us. Our inability to allow our love to cover a multitude of sins has resulted in abundant and sundry wars within the church.
Whatever duties that pertain to community we must be employing now, regardless of whom we are living next to and worshipping with. There is certainly nothing wrong with desiring to move in close proximity with a group of like minded Christians, but sometimes I wonder what kind of community would be established if a group of people who are disgruntled with their present state decide to all move to the same locale, assuming that such a move will be the end all of their frustrations.
Unity is important, of course, for we know that a house divided against itself shall not stand. It is difficult to live in an environment, or worse yet, be part of a church family that consistently rejects the manner in which we are striving to live. It is a sad thing if we have to undo much of what we have seen or heard at church so that are kids are not confused!
We live on a rural property that we have bought together with another family. I went to a small Christian school for 10 years with the wife and I have been great friends with the husband for 15 years. We attend the same church (he is a deacon and I am an elder). We are very much alike and in owning our property, we have spent much time working together. He is gifted in some areas and I in others and we have been able to make the thing work well.
Having said that, in spite of this abundant unity and decades of frienship, it takes much work to keep everything peaceful! They have four sons, we have two daughters and two sons. We don't have the same rules pertaining to children. The differences are petty, in a way, but life on the "playground" can be interesting! My point is only that establishing a sense of community is no easy task!
In other words, what we truly have to work on is learning how to truly love and how to exhibit traits like patience, forbearance, longsuffering etc. We truly need to learn how to be meek and how to allow love to cover a multitude of sins. We have to strive to look first to the things of others and to not think more highly of ourselves than we ought. These things are biblical commands that we must place into practice now, regardless of whether or not we are happy with our position overall. If we are not able to observe and obey these duties, it matters now with whom we worship and live next to, for we will be arguing certainly within the month!
I sometimes argue that my first choice for intimate friends are those who live godly in Christ. I can forbear a lot of doctrinal differences providing that we are on the same page in our desire to live in a holy manner. A couple of my closest friends are paedobaptists, even though we differ on that doctrinal detail. I have a very dear friend who is an Arminian. The thread that binds us together is the fact that we truly love God and desire to honor Him by our conduct.
I recognize that I have said a lot and probably have answered none of your questions, but hopefully somewhere you might find something worthy of consideration!
In Christ,
Bob
Bob,
Thank you for your comments!
"There is certainly nothing wrong with desiring to move in close proximity with a group of like minded Christians, but sometimes I wonder what kind of community would be established if a group of people who are disgruntled with their present state decide to all move to the same locale, assuming that such a move will be the end all of their frustrations."
I am reminded of a statement that Doug Wilson always repeats: if you're discontent here, you'll be discontent there as well.
Life Togehter is excellent at pointing out what the true source of community is: not agrarianism, not theonomy, not homeschooling, but rather Christ, and Him alone. God can bring about all these things as common beliefs of a particular community, but when man tries to do it himself, we will surely fail.
Thank you for your comments!
"There is certainly nothing wrong with desiring to move in close proximity with a group of like minded Christians, but sometimes I wonder what kind of community would be established if a group of people who are disgruntled with their present state decide to all move to the same locale, assuming that such a move will be the end all of their frustrations."
I am reminded of a statement that Doug Wilson always repeats: if you're discontent here, you'll be discontent there as well.
Life Togehter is excellent at pointing out what the true source of community is: not agrarianism, not theonomy, not homeschooling, but rather Christ, and Him alone. God can bring about all these things as common beliefs of a particular community, but when man tries to do it himself, we will surely fail.
My purpose in going to church is to worship God. Comunity and fellowship are an added benefit. I've been a Lutheren, a Methodist, Evangelical United Brethrn, and attended many other denominations.
When we left Baltimore we would alternate between the UCC (mine) and Seventh Day Adventist(hers). Fortunatly, I was not excommunicated by any of the above and if I were I wouldn't care.
Since our move to Groundhog Mountain we have been fortunate enough to meet some local people who invited us to their small church. We met an extremely welcoming congregation of unassuming Appalachians. We've been there once and today the minister called to invite us to their Christmas Dinner tonight. Unfortunatly it's now sleeting on the mountain and we won't make it (drat, all that good cooking).
There is a wealth of small churches in this area to attend and I'm sure few of them encounter the ups and downs of their more urban sisters and brothers. But then I feel we're a little closer to God up here.
When we left Baltimore we would alternate between the UCC (mine) and Seventh Day Adventist(hers). Fortunatly, I was not excommunicated by any of the above and if I were I wouldn't care.
Since our move to Groundhog Mountain we have been fortunate enough to meet some local people who invited us to their small church. We met an extremely welcoming congregation of unassuming Appalachians. We've been there once and today the minister called to invite us to their Christmas Dinner tonight. Unfortunatly it's now sleeting on the mountain and we won't make it (drat, all that good cooking).
There is a wealth of small churches in this area to attend and I'm sure few of them encounter the ups and downs of their more urban sisters and brothers. But then I feel we're a little closer to God up here.
There is no perfect church. We have been disgusted with both sides involved in this trouble. We did not move here for RC. Everything we believe is because we believe God teaches it. We have our problems as every church does (because all churches are made up of sinful people). There is no cult activity going on here. People might follow RC and love everything he says and its only because they are the following type and not leaders or because its a trend and the cool thing to do. Our family theology is more like the CREC, but so far we have had no trouble worshipping here. We have so many different kinds of family doctrines and theology. We have lots of Vision Forum Families and Baptists and Auburn Avenue Families. Unless you live here it's pretty hard to know what's really going on. Alot of families, like us, have not been pleased with our Elders and there actions or with the families who are leaving and causing extra stink. Really both sides need to grow up and move on. How petty.
A St. Peter member
A St. Peter member
# posted by 
: 12/14/2005 08:32:00 AM
: 12/14/2005 08:32:00 AM
Thank you for your honesty. My point is exactly what you have pointed out, there is no perfect church. And although we all we freely admit it, we still are tempted to try and make the perfect church, because we are unholy people. Since it is so hard for us to learn to be a community where we are, we figure it might be easier if we just do it on our own and try and form a community that might be easier for us to fit into.
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